Kyla Denanyoh, host of You Are A Lawyer:
You are listening to You Are A Lawyer Podcast. I am the podcast host Kyla Denanyoh, a 2015 graduate of the Southern University Law Center. This podcast was created to share the experiences of law school graduates with nontraditional careers and exciting hobbies.
In today's episode, I'm speaking with a certified public accountant business owner based in Fort Myers, Florida, this guest owns and operates Leal Tax, LLC, a company that helps law firms and individuals save money through her knowledge of the tax code. Today's guest is Christina Lael. Welcome to the podcast. Kristina, thank you. I'm honored to be here.
Would you tell our audience a little bit about yourself?
Christina Lael: Sure. So I, um, grew up right outside Nashville. Tennessee went to school, became a CPA, passed the test the first time, which I couldn't believe so decided to go to law school and there started doing my classmates tax returns and also was, had the amazing fortune of studying with two of the top tax attorneys in Nashville, Tennessee.
So really just fell in love with it being the nerd that I am and the numbers person that I am at the time I was working. Big Fortune 500 company and wanted to, once I graduated law school wanting to become part of their legal team and they didn't want me to do that right away, or I'd have to wait, or I didn't really know where it went or if I'd be able to join.
So I decided to go out on my own. I had already started working at, you know, working a lot on the side and having lots of clients. And preparing their tax returns and doing tax planning, because I've just, I found out that very few people, very few CPAs and accounting firms actually do tax planning, like proactive tax planning, showing people how they can save money before they get this huge bill that they have to pay the IRS.
Um, so just fell in love with it. Loved being able to use my experience and knowledge to enrich other people's lives, especially in this day and age. And it's. Grown from there and we've grown and you'll see my website that I market to other attorneys and law firms specifically, because you really have to being that the tax code is 60,000 pages long.
So if I didn't, it would be like me trying to practice personal injury law, which would probably put me in jail twice. Cause I'm a CPA and an attorney and CPA for those that don't know is certified public health.
Kyla Denanyoh: Yes, it is. So you mentioned that you met a lot of people with JDS when you were studying for your CPA exam. What exactly about them prompted you to go to law school?
Christina Lael: Oh, good question. So the people that taught Becker, which I ended up teaching that course as well, which helps people prepare and study for the CPA exam. The national teachers were all CPAs and. And I remember at the very end, one of the guys, Peter, um, who was really the best teacher, he said, you know what, once you get your CPA, you should really think about going to law school.
And I'm like, Nope, that sounds like a good idea. Why not? So once I passed the CPA exam, And at the time I was single and didn't really know what to do. And then I had a dream about going to law school, I guess it really resonated with Peter had said, so I decided to go for it.
Kyla Denanyoh: Okay. And you would send it part-time while working on your, as an accountant during the day?
Christina Lael: I did. So I worked at caterpillar in the tax department and I went to Nashville School of Law, which is a night law school. And, um, it's a fantastic program.
Kyla Denanyoh: Yeah. We had a number of students who attended, um, at night where I went to school and we also had a tax clinic. Did you participate in the tax clinic when you were a student?
Oh, you know what?
Christina Lael: I didn't participate in a tax clinic when I was a student, but it was through caterpillar. I participated in a tax clinic and then I volunteered for United way for a year and teach classes. To other tax professionals.
Kyla Denanyoh (KD): Yes. So that I find so interesting. You actually teach law practice CLS right now, continuing legal education courses.
And are you focusing on the tax aspects of your law practice or is it a little bit of everything?
Christina Lael (CL): It's a little bit of everything I did give one CLE of, um, about how to use technology in today's, uh, for attorneys, for today's attorney. Since very few people actually do this and they wanted to know like how I did, you know, everything and what tools that I use.
So I gave a CLE about that.
KD: So I think that's so fascinating. Most people hear that if you like numbers become a doctor, if you don't like numbers to be a lawyer. So you are doing both.
CL: I hadn't heard that.
KD: Yeah. I used to hear it all the time. So the fact that you enjoyed numbers and you were volunteering to do people's taxes?
CL: Yeah, well, I didn't volunteer, but actually I did volunteer when one year with United health, with the United Way.
KD: Wow. Where there a VITA program, but you actually enjoy.
CL: Yeah, I do. I do. I love putting together ways for them to say money in taxes that the tax code actually allows. Uh, it's similar to a thief, you know, showing up at your door, disguises, Uncle Sam. And saying, Hey, can I come in and take a bunch of your stuff?
And you're like, sure, come on in and take whatever you want. And I come alongside people and say, Hey, guess what? We actually have laws on the books of this country that say you don't always have to let them in. And you certainly don't have to let them take nearly what he's taking. Um, in fact, you can put a lock on your door.
You can call the police, you can even install a security system. Those are all legal, effective things that we're able to do in this country. That same principle. Applied to the tax code and your tax returns and most accountants and CPAs just don't have the knowledge, the time, the resources, or even the passion to do this because the tax software.
Now they're so advanced that just with a general knowledge of tax, you could input someone's numbers. It will spit out a tax return that the IRS is more than happy to accept. Cause they'll never tell you if you pay too much in taxes. So not only am I, one of the few people that focus on tax planning, but even one of the fewer that focuses on other attorneys, because I've found it's a really overlooked industry.
Um, I don't know why. I don't know why people don't want to work with us, but…
KD: Because attorneys don't like numbers, that's the count. That's all they want to know. I don't care. Right.
CL: Yeah. So I, but I love it. I love working with, uh, working with other attorneys. I've only had one jerk that I've really worked with.
Who's no longer a client, but other than that, we absolutely love our clients. They're like family and we really put our heart and soul into it.
KD: Okay. So you were working as an accountant in corporate America, so you're used to very large accounting spreadsheets. All right. And do you prefer it now with law firms as clients?
CL: I do. I can really work with the client one-on-one and look at their goals and desires and their specific situation. You know, how much money are they making? Do they have payroll? Do they not have payroll? Is it just them or do they have people on staff? So, yeah, I like that much, much better.
KD: Now the fact that you are one of 60 texts coaches who are actually certified by the American Institute of certified tax planners, how do you use that with your law degree with your business?
CL: Um, oh wow. I use it every day. So that's a group that focuses on teaching tax strategies and where we can, you know, ask each other questions. Talk about different tech strategies. We have a webinar, a CPE credit twice a month, talking about strategies, looking at case studies, looking at peoples or businesses, tax returns with their information, of course, blocked off and seeing like different strategies that we could use, uh, their base out in California.
And I've been out there and I've gone to different reunions where they have training as well. And what's exciting is that I've partnered with a few others. Certified tax planners. And we're going to have a book coming out. Wow. Couple months called Thinking Outside the Tax Box. And then I've written a chapter called hidden business deductions.
KD: So excited about that. Yeah. Sounds like it. Would you give us a little bit of detail about. Thinking outside the 600 page tax code…
CL: Actually 60,000 page tax code.
Kyla Denanyoh: Oh, wow. That would be nothing. Like you'd looked at law books and you were like, oh yes!
CL: So my hidden business expenses, I talk about really simple tax deductions that can be used in. And if anyone wants to, you know, go to my website@laeltax.com, L-A-E-L Tax.com. They sign up for my newsletter. I'd be happy to give them a copy of that chapters. So it's just one way to use different things that you may already be using in your business to take deductions. And it's just one of like the very simple strategies that I might use for someone's a strategic tax plan that I would create for them.
KD: So outside of any tax courses that you took when you were in law school, were there any particular classes that you think helped you the most with running your own business right now? Wow.
CL: Running my own business that you learn a lot, like kind of on the fly. There was one class that I took called managing a law firm and he was a single practitioner name was John, same name as my husband's arm.
I remember that, but he was. So he just gave some real practical tips of how to run a law firm.
KD: And you had already created your accounting business before school, or it was after school that you started?
CL: Yeah. Great question. So before school I had started doing several peoples my find our financial advisors.
He added several of his client's tax returns. And he knew that I was a CPA at the time, not yet an attorney, but that I knew about, you know, taxes and made sure they got the best treatment. So word of mouth just spread. And then he told all the other financial advisors in that company about me and they started sending me their clients.
And then I started doing the financial advisors tax returns. That's great. And then when I started law school, I started doing my classmates tax returns. And then started doing their bosses tax returns, which were mainly lawyers. And at that point, because they were making more money and a lot of the clients from the financial advisors as well, you know, they were making maybe 300,000 or more, which is a great place to start with tax planning.
Um, and so then was able to use more strategies for those kinds of, uh, clients. Okay.
KD: So when you market your. Which is Layal tax LLC. When you're out marketing and you're marketing towards attorneys, are you attending ABA conferences? Is it still word to mouth?
CL: So it's still word of mouth mostly, and I've have pretty large internet presence, very robust LinkedIn profile.
I post a lot of articles, especially about the, like the stimulus package and the $10,000 grant that you could get for any small business or prior. You know, with the new cares act, the payroll protection plan loan that I've heard from people is that I'm really the only one, or I guess the first one that has really given clear, cut, understandable information about these different loans or grants that businesses can get.
You know, there's a way that a lot of businesses can get even just like $10,000 that they don't have to pay back. And people are real confused about it and about all the information that's swirling around and miscommunication during the [the situation] crisis. I found a lot of clients through that.
KD: Okay, great.
Now with you being barred to practice law in Tennessee, did you ever formerly practice? So I never formally
CL: practiced, you know, in terms of like trying a case in a courtroom, which I don't need to, we do it through the. Any of my clients who rarely get audited. If, when they do get audited, we can clearly represent them with the IRS and they passed every audit.
And of course being a CPA and I had my CPA license in Tennessee and Florida. I'm a member of the bar, Tennessee. You know, I don't need to really quote, practice tax law because you've merged the two, which is great.
KD: That's what… that's what this podcast is all about, how people are taking one degree and using it to do all kinds of things, right?
CL: Yeah. So being a CPA, I'm really using my CPA hat when I'd prepare tax returns and do tax planning. And I do of course market to a lot of attorneys and law firms, but. I can help really anyone save money in taxes. Cause a lot of the strategies are the same, but I just really know the legal industry really, really well, knowing that, and then your passion for texts has to benefit you because there's so many people who avoid their taxes.
KD: So for them to meet someone who's like, Hey, you know, the legal part and the tax part.
CL: Yeah. Wonderful. Yes, absolutely. So really, and especially word of mouth. Um, there's actually several industries that I've been able to help and clients, some of them, you know, I get a range, they kind of know like a little bit about taxes and they kind of have an idea or maybe they've had a fairly good accountant, but I know more of the advanced strategies that they can use, you know?
KD: And a lot of people just say, I have no, I have no clue about taxes and don't want to know either. Right.
CL: Yeah. And they don't like, I don't want to know. I don't have no nothing about this. Just take it and handle it. And that's, I love that too. Kind of a prerequisite for any of my new clients. I go through a whole tax plan strategy with them, which takes about an hour, like to go through all the strategies, answer all their questions, show them what we're going to implement for them and what we're going to do for them so that they have.
And awareness of what we're doing and an understanding, but, but we take care of everything for them. So we, we install the lock and we install the security system for them.
KD: And then it has to be comforting for them. I'm sure. Yeah. I think, I
CL: think so. We do love our clients. I've got some great testimonials on my website.
Where you can click on that person and go to their actual LinkedIn page. So you can sit there. An actual, real person heard from them. And even from some new clients, how much they really appreciate is information that I've been given out. Um, and I continue to educate them and talk to them and like to have quarterly meetings with them and meet with them, um, at any time at no additional charge, because I always want to have that open door relationship.
KD: Would you attend law school again?
CL: I would, but I'm so glad I don't have to.
KD: That's a great answer.
CL: If I go back in time and be like, yeah, go ahead and do it. It's to be worth it. It's going to give you experience and knowledge that you never realize that you would need.
KD: Yeah. And exposure to things.
CL: It is. It is.
KD: Now would you study to be a CPA all over again?
CL: Oh yeah. Oh, absolutely. Yeah, definitely. It's great. It's a great combination.
KD: Thank you so much, Christina. Thank you so much. This
CL: has been super fun.
Kyla Denanyoh: That was episode one of the You Are A Lawyer podcast.
Thank you for listening to my conversation with Christina Lael, accountant, business owner and lawyer. Christina's contact information will be provided in the show notes. New episodes of You Are A lawyer are released every Thursday, wherever you find your favorite podcasts, subscribe to the show so that you don't miss any of the new episodes. Leave a comment and follow us on Twitter, Instagram, and LinkedIn at You Are A Lawyer. Thank you for listening. Have a great career.
Click here to listen to Episode 1 of You Are A Lawyer with Christina Lael.
NOTE: This transcript was created from the You Are A Lawyer podcast episode with Kyla Denanyoh and Christina Lael. This transcript was not edited to correct grammar and follow writing rules.
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