You Are A Lawyer Episode 44 Transcript - Jolene Blackbourn - Education Advocate and Lawyer

Kyla Denanyoh, host of You Are A Lawyer:

You are listening to You Are A Lawyer Podcast. I am the podcast host Kyla Denanyoh, a 2015 law school graduate. This podcast was created to share the experiences and successes of law school graduates who created their own paths to career success.

In Episode 44, I am speaking with a learning advocate and lawyer, this guest teaches pre-law and law students to graduate in less time and with less debt. Based in Los Angeles, California today's guest is Jolene Blackbourn. Welcome to the podcast. Jolene.

Jolene Blackbourn: Thank you. Thanks for having me. 

Kyla Denanyoh: Yes. So you and I connected because you have an Instagram page legal learning center and I found it to be so refreshing and so innovative with you're doing, would you share with the audience a little bit about the legal learning center?

Jolene Blackbourn: Absolutely. Thanks so much. So yeah, the goal of the legal learning center is to really provide prospective law students with all the advice that I wish I had known before I went to law school. I'm a first-gen student, so I had. No real guidance and the guidance I did have was bad. So I try to help pre-loss students with all the things from self-care to debt.

And that's really my main, main focus is the debt to just about everything else in between. It is not like admissions advice so much, but it is a lot more of the, how much debt can you actually afford to take out considering your career goals and. What school should you be looking at considering your career goals?

Cause rank doesn't mean everything for every career goal and stuff like that. Okay. 

Kyla Denanyoh: And what's your background? How did you get into the legal field? 

Jolene Blackbourn: So I was interested more in politics when I was in college. And most politicians are lawyers. So I thought, okay, I'll go to law school. And you know, if I don't become a politician, there's that little fallback of being a lawyer.

And I think I got lost along the way somewhere or something. I don't know. So I also was interested in working for a nonprofit, so I thought, okay, I could help the nonprofit so much more if I was a lawyer and I just took on way too much debt to ever go into nonprofit work and yeah. Lost interest in politics.

Kyla Denanyoh: Okay. Now you say just became an attorney, but you worked with a Fortune 500 company. It was a pretty big deal. Yeah. 

Jolene Blackbourn: Yeah. It's kind of funny how that happens because in law school, I avoided everything that they told me to do everything. They say, you need to do this to pass the bar. This is what you need to do to get a good job.

I just turned around the other way. No law review, no moot court, none of that kind of stuff. I just, I don't know, have fun. Um, as it turns out the whole time I was really networking. I didn't really realize that when I was hanging out with people, I was networking, but I was networking and yeah, it's through that network that I got my first job in insurance defense.

And then yeah, moved on to, through that same network, to a Fortune 500 company where I stayed for 12 years. 

Kyla Denanyoh (KD): Okay. Insurance defense that is working for the insurance company defending.  

Jolene Blackbourn (JB): Yes, exactly. And my department was worker's comp, so yeah, it's interesting that my job really had a lot of different titles because I'm a corporate attorney.

I'm an insurance defense attorney. I'm a work comp attorney. There's so many different labels. And when I hear pre-loss students say, oh, I want to be a corporate attorney or something like this. I don't think they actually know what that means, because if I say, well, do you want to be a work comp attorney?

They might. No, but it turns out that they can be one of the same. So yeah, I was a work comp attorney, so I defended employers against, uh, injured workers. And I, and when I say, guess I don't really mean again, it just made sure that these people were actually injured and getting the appropriate treatment and you know, if they weren't injured, I took it to trial and.

If they were injured, then I made sure they got the benefits. They need it so that they could get better. And hopefully back to work. 

KD: Yes. And Jolene, you keep saying work comp, but audience that is workers' compensation, if you didn't know. 

JB: Yeah. 

KD: So, okay. Um, so. When you were in law school, did you have any interest in going to trial?

Did you think that you were going to be a litigator? 

JB: I was dedicated to being a transactional attorney, so I wanted nothing to do with trial. I resisted every single thing. We had a trial advocacy class. We had to take, the professor actually said I had a knack for it, but I really was doing the bare minimum.

So, um, I just really didn't want to do it. And actually when I got this job opportunity, I resisted. I actually spent my first few years after I graduated in wills and trust, but I had trouble making full-time income. And so I just really, I struggled because I didn't want to give in and just take any old job.

Like most of my friends did. And finally, those student loans were just like, look, you need to pay us. So I finally told my friend, okay. Go ahead and get me a job with you. And she was already doing worker's comp. And so I started there and I don't know what it is, but I loved it. I didn't want to do anything litigious.

I didn't want to do anything medical related. And yet here I am reviewing medical reports and I took so many cases to trial that I became known as the trial queen at my office. So complete opposite. Yeah, it was great. I actually really do enjoy trial. I bucked prefer to settle. I have no fear of trial anymore.

I love going to trial. It really there's a lot of mental agility in there. Yeah. I had some of the biggest cases in my corporation and even got to take a case up to the California Supreme court. So it was 

KD: fantastic. When I was in law school, I thought I wanted to go to trial. I don't want it to be a litigator big time.

And after school I got into transactional work and I fell in love with that. So the thing that I liked about litigation was I thought I would really enjoy all the procedure, but then transactional work is literally paper pushing and reviewing stuff and emails and back review. And I love that. I love the routine of it.

You can just get lost in the works. 

JB: Yeah. That's exactly what I wanted. I was like, look, I don't want lots of pressure. I just want like the easiest law job I can find basically. Can you pay me well to not work very hard? That was my goal. 

KD: Yeah, exactly. Almost didn't fit into that very well, but they were fun.

JB: Yeah. I mean, when you said pressure that hit the nail right on the head, because you have your corporation looking at you, you have the other people, like there's an actual audience, like a literal person. That's waiting for the results. Yeah, absolutely. 

KD: Yeah. Okay. And you said you were working in wills. I know a lot of people who Excel in that field, but I don't know a lot of people who intentionally go into it.

How did you end up there? 

JB: Yeah, that's funny. I took wills and trusts as my, honestly, my, one of my last classes in law school, because I thought it sounded so boring. I almost didn't take it even though it's two subject on the bar exam. I just was very resistant, but I caved, I took it and I don't know why.

I think just maybe again, that simplicity, like we were saying about. Easiness of kind of paper pushing. It just made sense to me. And I just fell in love with it. And I got the top score in the class and I just was like, this is it. This is what I want to do. And so yeah, did it for a few years, but yeah, I was not able to make very much doing it.

Uh, had to set that aside, although come full circle, um, during COVID I started doing it again, because then all of a sudden people realize they might actually die. So, yes. So I do that now. I don't do the trials anymore. 

KD: Okay. Yeah. I hadn't thought about that. How old? Everything changing? What the situation.

Yeah. Right. People be like, oh, I could die. Maybe I need a will or trust or something to protect me. 

JB: Yeah, it's amazing how slow people still are on it. They still drag their feet, but a lot more people. Awakened to the possibility. So during [the situation], I really wasn't working full time or anything. And then just so many people kept asking me for a trust.

And I finally said, okay, you know what, I'm going to open my old firm back up and let's do this. 

KD: Yeah. I mean, especially when you have the demand, it's like, I can't let the people go wanting you're right. 

JB: I kept telling people that was 15 years ago. I'm not doing that. And then after about four people, I finally said, okay, Buying.

Yeah. So, yeah. So it's been fun to go back to this original area that I really thought I was going to spend my life doing and yeah, it didn't work out. And now it's actually a lot more on my terms because, you know, when I was like 27, I felt like anything anybody wanted I had to do. And now I'm like, I'm not going to do probate.

I'm not going to do trust administration, even though that would be a full package, kind of a deal for a firm price. I don't want to deal with a bunch of like loose ends and back and forth. I want to keep my life really simple right now. And so just drafting documents is really simple. So I absolutely have told people I can't help you when they come to me for that tail end work.

And so it's kinda nice to be, I think, a little older, a little more secure. I just don't care. This is not what I want for my life. So I'm not going to do it. 

KD: Plus you have the perspective shift of now you can do it because you want to not, I really love this, but I can't afford to do it. Right. It's a different 

JB: exactly.

I've got other things going on. So this is just, it's been adding to the. It's been really nice because again, it's that peace of mind of knowing. Yes. I'm not frantic to take in every pace and just, I don't know what I'm doing and I'm going to stress myself out and I'm going to, you know, do things I probably shouldn't even be doing.

Maybe I might, I may still have to do some research here and there, but it's all just document drafting and it's just, there's a nice, comfortable, So last 

KD: question on this, cause I'm like, I didn't even expect to go down this hole. Was there a lot of research you had to do to get up to date on what was currently happening with wils?

JB: Luckily the field doesn't change too too much, but yes, I did have to do some research cause there was a whole new thing that came out in 2016. So your California, at least. So yes. It's so important to kind of make sure you're on top of things. 

KD: Yeah, of course. I know you're still licensed and active in California, but I was just like, I wonder if a lot has changed. It's not like you were in e-commerce law or intellectual property where probably every month something's changing. 

JB: Yeah, worker's comp is like that too, because especially with [the situation] right. As we discover new medical things, it's changing, what's related and in wills trust, it's all kind of just, you die and, you know, there's a certain federal tax limit and stuff like that.

And it doesn't change very often and it's yeah. Pretty easy to find that info. So, yeah, pretty easy. 

KD: Cool. Okay. So jumping around here a little bit, did you know that you wanted to be a lawyer when you went to college? 

JB: I don't think so. I knew I was interested in government and history. Okay. And so Polit Sci was kind of on my horizon as a major, and I pretty much ended up going straight into that.

And then, yeah, the more into that I got, the more I went on that political route. So law school kind of kept getting a little closer and closer to my view, but it was never quite there. And then suddenly. There 

KD: you went to the University of California, Santa Barbara. And that was where you studied political science.

Yeah. Okay. So I studied Polit Sci well, but the funny thing is I knew I wanted to go to law school and I found it. I found the major did not prepare me, but I think if you want it to be in politics, it probably was a good thing. 

JB: It really was because I focus a lot on our international relations. So I got to see how we interact with other countries and just how our politics, you know, interacts.

And so I felt like I was a little more prepared yet. If I was going to go into politics again in DC, maybe not local politics. But with, you know, what I might need to do so that I don't impact things wrongly and just, I, I don't know that kind of thing. And I took a class on Congress, so we got to kind of see how they work.

And I did a three month internship in DC, so I definitely was pushing towards that. 

KD: Yeah. So in your questionnaire, you mentioned that you went to law school because you wanted to help people and make money. Yeah. Did you end up doing that? Not answering mail, you know, 15 years out. Yeah. But do you think within like your first five years you were like, I'm helping people, I'm making.

JB: Yeah, I think, um, that making money piece came a little slower, but I definitely was not making what I thought I was going to make in those first five years. Yeah. But as far as helping people, first of all, with the Wilson trust, I immediately felt like I was helping people. I mean, the relief that people feel when they sign those documents, they just, they feel so relaxed.

They feel so relieved. And we used to call them signing parties. Cause they just were so happy. Like, yay. I can die now. But even in more calm, you know, when I felt like I was giving in and okay, I'm not even helping anyone anymore, I'm helping a company. And I was a little depressed going into worker's comp because I felt like, yeah, I'm not doing what I set out to do.

But what I found was that, first of all, there's a lot of small companies out there that need every cent. If somebody is lying or somebody's overly using the system, right. Abusing the system, that employer is overpaying for that. And they might have to lay people off because of that. I had one guy who for like a year, wasn't paying himself a salary, but was paying his injured worker a full-time salary instead of letting us pick up the temporary disability.

And I was like, please stop pay yourself something. Yeah, my handling of his case was extremely important to helping his business survive. And it's not just that either the injured workers, when they get an attorney, their trays go say the same thing. On every case, my guy is injured, get him some benefits.

But when I depose the injured worker, I'm going back to the insurance company, and I'm saying this person's a liar, or I'm saying this person is honestly injured. They need treatment, get them treatment. And I'm able to move that needle so much faster than their own attorney. So it really was a great job to have to help people because I was able to help, especially those small companies, but then also the injured workers to get their treatment faster.

KD: The only thing I know about defense from the corporate side is from TV. You know, the wife, and she's always seen as being the bad guy, but I actually hadn't thought about it from a small business owner's perspective. So that was a good point. 

JB: Yeah. Really hard to see sometimes whether the person's injured or not.

Right. Just how some of these companies just sink under the weight of higher insurance costs or, you know, just these bills that they have to pay. And. It's really quite sad, especially when the worker isn't, we all know the workers not actually injured. So yeah. So it's always nice to be able to help people.

And so I really did find a happy place. And honestly, so I represented some large corporations like princess cruises and Rite aid and stuff like that. And you know, those are companies that provide really. Pay and benefits to a lot of people who don't necessarily have anything beyond their high school diploma.

And these people with their high school diploma, wouldn't normally get all this kind of health insurance and 401k and all this other stuff. And so if we can help keep their cost down the corporation's cost down, they can continue to provide all these benefits to all these workers. And so again, it's just a matter of how you kind of look at it and what your we're really trying to do.


Yeah. And you mentioned depositions, you actually started to teach other lawyers how to give depositions because you were the trial queen. Yes. And you enjoyed it so much. Did you find that other lawyers were receptive to this. 

JB: Yes. I loved training other attorneys with the step positions and that is an ebb and flow for me right now.

But I enjoy it so much. And the attorneys, you can just see them absorbing this information. Right. They're just so excited. It's something that. Like practical information that they can really use. And most firms superly just don't provide training. They let you shadow and then maybe they shadow you and give you a few pointers.

And then off you go, and the problem is a good deposition is what can lead to a trial win. So without those skills you might be missing out on a lot. You might be over hanging on settlements. You might not be taking the right cases to trial. You might be losing trial. The deposition is really the foundation and it's super duper important to know how to do it right.

To know how to ask sensitive questions, how to create an ebb and flow so that you can either make the witness cry if you want, or make sure they don't cry if you don't want them to. And, um, and if it's inevitable, if it's a very sensitive subject where they're, you just know they're going to tear up or cry at some point.

How do you keep them talking? So they don't totally break down. So you get actually get through the deposition. So it's all a bunch of skills, but especially when you want them to not say something so that it's not on the record, it's a skill set. And I read other people's transcripts and there's a lot of lawyers out there who just don't have this skill.


KD: So I know one of the big rules to a deposition is you never ask the question. You don't know the answer to. Did you find the transition from practicing to being a podcast host difficult because you actually are talking to people and you're trying to be enlightened at the moment versus doing all the research and knowing everything before.

JB: No, because actually in worker's comp we do our depositions at the beginning of a case. Okay. So we actually do have a lot of gaps. And so we do still have to be careful, but we oftentimes are asking questions. We don't know the answers to, or we just have answers from the employer. And to be honest, sometimes the employer misleads us.

So, you know, they either want to look good or. Maybe they did something wrong. You never know, just because they're your client doesn't mean they're perfect. So we actually do a little bit of fishing in the work comp deppos and yeah, with the podcast interviewing it is a lot more fishing. I know some podcast hosts likes to, they like to have all their questions kind of pre-answered I'm more of a wing.

It let's just hang out and chat. So I have found it was a really good transition, just being used to. Doing a Q and A with someone to then sitting on a podcast and doing a Q and a with someone. 

KD: Yeah, I am a hybrid. Right. So I ask every guest questions, but then the questions that I have for the actual interview are a little bit different.

They're broader, but then I still think about 70% of the questions. Spur of the moment. Cause I'm like, oh, that was interesting. What about this? Right? 

JB: Yes. And that's the great thing. Just go off of the tangent. Cause you just never know where it leads. Yeah. Yeah, 

KD: yeah, absolutely. And what was it that led you to creating the legal learning package?

JB: So starting in law school, I ran my law attorney file for Delta. And so a lot of my younger members would come to me for advice. And I just started advising people from that point. My fraternity started actually flying me around to give speeches to pre-loss students. Wow. Yeah. So I started advising them.

And so as a lawyer, I just always advise law students and pre law students. I would go back and give speeches to my law school and stuff like that. And then. In 2019, I had an opportunity to really take it, you know, more full-time to actually dedicate some real time to it. So. I just really like to help the pre-loss students to give them the advice I didn't get.

And sometimes, you know, when we, as a pre-law student, reach out to lawyers, we, as lawyers might be a little jaded, we might be like, don't go to law school or whatever our mood.

KD:  Right. 

JB: Yeah. So I try to make sure it's that even keel advice of, Hey, I'm someone who has been helping people for a long time. I know the ins and outs, and I'm going to give you a more neutral answer rather than just where your parents are.

Kind of like, go, go, go. And then you happen to get that jaded attorney who said, don't go. And you're just a little confused. Look, here's all the information here. Let's just talk about it in a broad calm sense with some reality. So yeah, I just always wanted that kind of advice. So I love helping them do that in any way I can, whether it's one-on-one advice, the podcast, I got a book now, so I mean all the different ways, it just something for everyone to try to reach as many people as possible to help as many people as possible.

KD: Yeah. That's why I'm happy that I'm able to share your resources with the audience. I know a lot of the audience is. Law students or lawyers who've been practicing for less than five years who are thinking about changing. And that's why I want to make sure I can advertise things like the Legal Learning Center, because I didn't have anyone who gave me any kind of mentorship or advice about school.

And I made a lot of mistakes. Yes. I mean, you'll still make mistakes audience, but at least if you have different perspectives, you can probably make less expensive mistakes or different mistakes. Yeah. 

JB: Absolutely. I mean, there's just so many misconceptions that I had and I'm just so glad I didn't listen to a lot of what the school was trying to tell me to do.

Like, Hey, you should be on moot court and you should do all these things. And you know, that would have been such a huge waste of time for me. And based on what my interests were. And I just see it so often where students are like, well, I got this almost full ride over here, and I'm interested in area a lot that doesn't pay very much.

And the clientele won't care about my rank, but I'm going to go to this more expensive, high ranked school that I got into. And it's like, Okay, unless you have another reason for paying more for that high rank. Like, why are we doing that? All your signs point over to the cheaper, you know, school, the more affordable school.

And there's so many mistakes we all make. Cause we have these misconceptions because we don't have people to talk to. So yeah, I, I try to reach them however I can. 

KD: So on the legal learning podcast, you've discussed a plethora of things. You talked to people who left the law, finance coaches, law, students with disabilities.

What do you hope the audience is learning from the legal learning podcast? 

JB: There are so many different ways to approach law school to save time or money. And so many of us don't know about that. I have a lot of students that come to me who don't actually really want to go to law school, but they want to kind of.

Being in the legal field. And so, like I had an episode on a J D alternative. Well, a lot of people, including us lawyers don't even know about this program because it's not very well advertised law school may be right for you, but do you know about this alternative? Hopefully I'm saving you some time and money and mistakes.

If I introduce this to you and it turns out it's right for you. Yeah. So I really am hoping to expose them to all the different options that are out there and just the different people who can have. Them move their success needle, whether it's paying down debt because it's too late now. Right. Or, um, yeah.

Or how to get better sleep, anything like that, that goes into what makes us miserable and a mess. Yeah. 

KD: I hope I'm so excited for like that. You're creating the conversation for people who I think I want to advocate, but I don't know if I want to go to law school and it's like, oh my gosh, you do not have to go to law school to advocate. Let me go. 

JB: Oh, yeah, there are so many people that come to me that are already working in great job doing policy stuff, but they work with all attorneys. And so they just feel like I should be an attorney and it's like, well, wait a minute. You're already doing the thing. So I don't know why you need more, but if you feel like you need more, yeah.

Let's go check out this policy degree. That's like nine months. I mean, and again, it may not be right, but make sure you check it out first, you know, it's a little cheaper and 

KD: faster. Yeah, absolutely. You have recently published. Congratulations. You recently published the pre-loss arrival guide. Why did you write that book?

JB: Yeah, it is, you know, I always want to create a book and so years ago I started and then I. Maybe I should make sure no one else has written this book. Okay. And so I looked and somebody had written this wonderful book. It wasn't my book, but it had a lot of what I want to say. So I hit pause on that. And I think that was like five years ago.

I think timing is everything. I think that, you know, things happen the way they're meant to happen. And so I was on a podcast maybe six months ago, and the host asked me, what is your two-year goal for your podcast? And I thought, I didn't know, I was supposed to have one, so, okay. Let me think of one real quick.

And then I thought, you know, I want to put it into a book and I want to make it a cohesive package where there's a flow to it and where it. Ads in a little bit of my 2 cents. So it's not just me interviewing someone, but it's me putting it together and saying, did you notice this important point? Yeah.

And so it's really a summary of the majority of my last year's podcast, guests, along with some extra advice from me and a bit of a flow and. Directing people. What type of advice do you need? There's some advice here, but if you want to go more in depth on any of these subjects, here's how you reach this expert, whether it's that sleep expert or an L sat tutor or an admissions counselor or whatever it is, a financial counselor.

And so it really is a little bit of a summary of my last year of podcasting. Like I said, with a little bit of a twist. 

KD: I love that. I love that podcasting can lead you there to taking that advice and then putting it in a written form. That's all. 

JB: Yeah. And I think, you know, we all have something to share and we all have good advice depending on the topic.

Right. But to be able to tap into 40 different experts and have all their brilliance in one book, it was just so nice to be able to lean on all their brilliance. 

KD: Yeah, absolutely. That's great. Yeah. So you've recently opened up the legal learning center to include high school students in early college.

Yes. Why did you make that shift? And does it go kind of hand in hand with the pre-loss? 

JB: The reason I went to the high school level was because what I was finding is a lot of college students really need to do some base level research on what their legal field actually did. They didn't have an inclu. I kind of mentioned earlier that a corporate attorney can also be interest.

Defense can also be workers' comp. And yet somebody might say, well, I don't want it. Corporate law. I only want to do insurance defense or whatever, and yet it might be the same thing. And so it's like, have you even researched what you're talking about? And most people haven't and they haven't researched how much they're actually going to make.

They might be shocked at how low a lot of starting salaries are. And yet they're taking out all this debt 60,000 a year and stuff like. And so I found that that was the base level where I was starting with a lot of the advice I was giving. And I thought, you know what? I can take this a level earlier and save a few more people.

So hopefully before they say to the world, I'm going to law school, when they're trying to decide what career do they want. And it doesn't matter if it's law or not. Let's do this research now, so that as you're picking a major and as you're looking at. You can research all your interests, whether it's, I'm interested in being an actor or I'm interested in working with horses or I'm interested in going to law school.

And so it's really just a way to teach them how to do effective informational interviews, how to find the people to do those interviews with, and then how to stay in touch. So you're building a network. Yeah. And what to do next. It's pretty basic level. At least in my mind. I'm hoping to catch them earlier so that they're not a senior or junior in college.

And then they're like, yeah, I'm tunnel vision for law school, even though I don't really know anything about it. And now it's too late because I already told everybody I'm going to law school. So I'm not going to change my mind. That kind of mindset. A lot of us get, 

KD: oh, a lot of us because people are so proud and they're so happy when you say you want to go to law school, right?

I mean, how dare you change your mind? Yeah. I've been telling all my friends that my daughter is going to be a lawyer. You have to go. 

JB: Yeah. Or they, they say you are a lawyer when you just start at law school this week. 

KD: You're like, wait, I'm not a lawyer yet. And it's like, that pressure is changing my mindset.

JB: Relax. Yeah. Yeah. So a lot of us, once we tell somebody that we're going to law school, it's over, we feel like it's set in stone. We can't change our minds. So I'm hoping to catch people before that time. But honestly, this is also a program that even if you're a little bit later in that journey, that's fine.

You can still join this program. But yeah, I, you know, I had a girl join who was interested in horses and talking. And so we kind of narrowed it down to, okay, what type of talking like podcasting, for example, and solo podcasting versus interviews, that kind of thing. And we kind of went through all the different ways.

People work in different types of jobs and found her job path that she could then research. So, yeah, it was a lot of fun. That's awesome. And that 

KD: is a very, very specific niche. You were able to find somebody who was doing that as awesome. So Jolene, is there anything else that you'd like to share with the audience about going to law school, being a lawyer, anything that you've learned?

JB: Yeah, I would just say really watch that debt to income ratio, know what it is, know what your starting salary more or less is going to be in whatever area of law you're interested in and then check it against whatever debt you're going to be taking out. Do your best estimate on that? My recommendation is first of all, obviously the less debt, the better.

Yeah. I recommend something like if you're really going for the gold on the debt level, no more than three times what your starting salary is going to be. Normally when we take out a mortgage, you can qualify for three times your income. So if your income is 50,000, you qualify for a mortgage of 150,000.

And I would use that general math. So if your starting salary is going to be 50,000, don't take out more than 150,000 in debt between undergrad and law school. Yes, that'll at least get you. Somewhat in it. Okay. Boat as your income goes up, then you should hopefully be able to add a mortgage to that as well.

But the lower you keep it the better. 

KD: Yeah. And everyone that's listening, if you have any questions about going to law school, how to pay for law school? I think I want to go, I'm not sure. Please contact Jolene. All of her contact details are in the show notes. All right. 

JB: Thank you so much for having me. 

KD: Oh, of course. Thank you, Jolene. I appreciate it. 

JB: All right, bye. 

Kyla Denanyoh: Bye. Thank you for listening to you on lawyer while you are here. Subscribe to the show, leave a rating and tell a friend about this episode. New episodes are released every other Thursday. Thanks again for listening. I hope you enjoyed the conversation. Bye.

Click here to listen to Episode 44 of You Are A Lawyer with Jolene Blackbourn. 

NOTE: This transcript was created from the You Are A Lawyer podcast episode with Kyla Denanyoh and Jolene Blackbourn. This transcript was not edited to correct grammar and follow writing rules.

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